saying L in the chat by DaGoldBrick May 3, 2017 at 10:05 PM UTC

Depends the context it's used in.

Depends the context it's used in.

L 
















ol

you were banned by someone who didn't know how to temp at some point.......LEL

It is funny when you guys try to have or type in a gramatically correct form but you fail as a bitch.

Myv??!?! Bruh how did you snipe that name... :D

What does it mean exactly?
I have never really seen it.. or at least I don't see it often enough to consider it some sort of problem.

It aggrevates some people, simple as that. The L stands for loser, which nobody would want to be called. Saying it once or twice should warrant a verbal warn at the most, but when it becomes spammed, that's when harsher punishments may be needed. There really isn't a need to say it to people anyways, so why bother?

every mod didn't know how to temp ban at some point.. new mods are still getting trained on things that juniors didn't have access to.

ok so how about you train their asses before promoting them

It's associated with the salty potpvp community don't bring it to avicus no ty :( when people say L it just starts arguments lol

ok so how about you train their asses before promoting them

It means loss, and using that logic as I said it should be considered punishable for the losing team to say W cos the same shit happening there lol

me and some other irrelevant horizon nerd were saying it as a joke in the chat and some fool thought we were being serious when it was obvious to any1 who has an iq over 80 that it was a joke

He said it's punishable off the mod guidelines or some shit, which is completely retarded - this man didn't even take the context into consideration, how do some people become mods on here I just don't understand

You're allowed to joke around and such, but don't take it to an extent to where you'll be punished for it.

If you believe you were unfairly punished, you can always appeal.

You're allowed to joke around and such, but don't take it to an extent to where you'll be punished for it.

If you believe you were unfairly punished, you can always appeal.

If I'm allowed to joke around, why was I punished for joking around? I'm not going to bother appealing through this shit system as it's not worth my time so explain to me why I was punished.

I was a witness of this horrific accident, brick was a spectator saying L and getting punished, he joined, died, and said L and got punished again.

L 
















ol

you were banned by someone who didn't know how to temp at some point.......LEL

Like I said, appeal if you think your punishment was unfair, as I was not the person who punished you I cannot explain to you your punishment. If you're not going to waste your time appealing, why waste it complaining? Don't see much logic in that.

Yeah I think you need to take a step back and learn basic english before trying to see logic. Where did I say I wanted to get unbanned? This is a discussion of the whole saying L in chat thing.

they promoted some guys this round i have never seen in my life, like the henry guy who banned you. He was trying to tell us we couldn't say random letters in chat because it triggered him.

You complained about cerealfirst banning you for playing around with this whole "L" thing, which lead me to say; "If you believe you were unfairly punished, you can always appeal". This discussion was brought up because you were banned for the use of "L" in chat.

Saying "L" in chat is toxic, and can be rude towards some people, which is why we don't allow it.

I recommed you read over the rules

If I'm allowed to joke around, why was I punished for joking around? I'm not going to bother appealing through this shit system as it's not worth my time so explain to me why I was punished.

If I'm allowed to joke around, why was I punished for joking around?

I wasn't there so I'm not going to pretend like I know, but if you were asked to stop and you didn't, (Which it sounds like you were) then I don't see why you're complaining. 

 I'm not going to bother appealing through this shit system as it's not worth my time

And posting about it on the forums and arguing is? You're not going to get your ban appealed by complaining on a post... Go appeal and handle this the mature way.

If I'm allowed to joke around, why was I punished for joking around?

I wasn't there so I'm not going to pretend like I know, but if you were asked to stop and you didn't, (Which it sounds like you were) then I don't see why you're complaining. 

 I'm not going to bother appealing through this shit system as it's not worth my time

And posting about it on the forums and arguing is? You're not going to get your ban appealed by complaining on a post... Go appeal and handle this the mature way.

You're allowed to joke around and such, but don't take it to an extent to where you'll be punished for it.

If you believe you were unfairly punished, you can always appeal.

I don't agree with Brick on most topics, but I do on this one. This is an idiotic rule. Who actually gets offended by the letter "L"? If its being spammed, then it should be punishable because it is against the rules. No where in the rules does it say that typing "L" in chat is punishable.

In my opinion, kids today are a little too sheltered. It's a video game... Typing a letter in chat isn't meant to persoanlly hurt people. But, if it does, they should just ignore the chat or grow up.

My personal opinion on this topic.
Adios

I don't agree with Brick on most topics, but I do on this one. This is an idiotic rule. Who actually gets offended by the letter "L"? If its being spammed, then it should be punishable because it is against the rules. No where in the rules does it say that typing "L" in chat is punishable.

In my opinion, kids today are a little too sheltered. It's a video game... Typing a letter in chat isn't meant to persoanlly hurt people. But, if it does, they should just ignore the chat or grow up.

My personal opinion on this topic.
Adios

It means loss, and using that logic as I said it should be considered punishable for the losing team to say W cos the same shit happening there lol

me and some other irrelevant horizon nerd were saying it as a joke in the chat and some fool thought we were being serious when it was obvious to any1 who has an iq over 80 that it was a joke

He said it's punishable off the mod guidelines or some shit, which is completely retarded - this man didn't even take the context into consideration, how do some people become mods on here I just don't understand

Even though it means loss, it can be taken as loser as well. I remember back in elementary school all the L symbols on foreheads lol.

The thing about W though is that it isn't insulting the other player, instead it gives praise for yourself such as "I win." "L"on the other hand is directed to the opponent as an insult and it isn't necessary. The death message tells them they died anyways so if someone says "L" it gets particularly annoying.

The context of the situation does depend as you said, however it is more difficult to recognize the intentions of a message in the game chat than something like Teamspeak. As long as I don't see any serious flame or arguing after someone says it, I'm fine with it as long as it's not spammed. 

All in all, I think if you are going to say it even though it's not necessary, you have to make it obvious that you don't actually mean it.

Regardless whether saying L is bannable or not, why did you not stop after you got warned and kicked?

After you got warned you could have stopped there and challenged it, but you kept going and got yourself banned?

I don't understand the logic behind that.

Even though it means loss, it can be taken as loser as well. I remember back in elementary school all the L symbols on foreheads lol.

The thing about W though is that it isn't insulting the other player, instead it gives praise for yourself such as "I win." "L"on the other hand is directed to the opponent as an insult and it isn't necessary. The death message tells them they died anyways so if someone says "L" it gets particularly annoying.

The context of the situation does depend as you said, however it is more difficult to recognize the intentions of a message in the game chat than something like Teamspeak. As long as I don't see any serious flame or arguing after someone says it, I'm fine with it as long as it's not spammed. 

All in all, I think if you are going to say it even though it's not necessary, you have to make it obvious that you don't actually mean it.

80% of what you said is assumption. 
By assuming things, you are creating a grey area within the rules. 
Grey area results in controversy -- just like the whole toggle sprint incident all over again.
So you're promoting this method of punishment?

The topic is a grey area as well. I think the closest category we have for that is "Rudeness", but sometimes people say "L" for banter, so like I said earlier it depends on the context. If people say it with harmful intentions, that's when the punishments roll in. I think in this case it was just a mistake and these grey areas should be ironed out. Most of these problems arise from the newer moderators mainly because they haven't got the full experience. As time goes on, people who have been on the staff team longer in my opinion tend to be more lenient and not take every guideline word for word.

So it's basically a guess? Again, the moderator has to assume that the person has harmful intentions. Get it wrong and you end up with a post like this on the forums. Besides, the intentions are harmless anyways. Nobody should be punished for saying the letter L. It's one letter, out of an english alphabet of 26, which could have a myriad of meanings and a million different contexts. So having to make silly guesses in chat about the meaning shouldn't happen, and that shouldn't result in this kind of outcry, and it shouldn't result in the moderator and player facing the consequences.

If you want this to stop, just take the L  (Also am I getting banned for that?) and fix the situation. Fucking do it. Don't argue about it on a forum post. I know you personally can do very little (believe me, I know), but someone should step in and do it.

What does it mean exactly?
I have never really seen it.. or at least I don't see it often enough to consider it some sort of problem.

lol

this is like saying "why do you keep saying hi to players when you were asked to stop?", surely one character L is inferior to 2 characters h and i in the same sentence?

the fact that I got warned or kicked in the first place (for putting a LETTER in the chat) shows the mod in question is an idiot who doesn't deserve his rank in the first place (although this is being dealt with anyways)

of course I'm going to challenge retarded shit, if left unchallenged that retarded shit will grow to an even more retarded level of 'punishable' offenses given the thickness of some mods on here

I didn't question why you've been challenging this, I question why you waited until you got banned to challenge it.

You seem very passionate about this, I jut assumed you would have challenged it the moment you got a warn instead of continuing and getting a temp ban-then challenging it.

it's because badlion has the same shit ruleset for this

they killed off an entire community and the nazi chat rules definitely played a part in that when kohi merged

the thing i liked about kohi was that the chat was more laid back and it made interacting with others easier, and then badlion kills it off and makes 1 letter mutable (which everyone who was informed about the joke knew was a retarded thing to do)

I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao, CerealFirst needs to be inspected by sr staff or w/e because he doesn't deserve to have his rank based on my interaction with him, no moderator who's not an idiot would punish someone for saying L as an obvious joke

it's because badlion has the same shit ruleset for this

they killed off an entire community and the nazi chat rules definitely played a part in that when kohi merged

the thing i liked about kohi was that the chat was more laid back and it made interacting with others easier, and then badlion kills it off and makes 1 letter mutable (which everyone who was informed about the joke knew was a retarded thing to do)

I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao, CerealFirst needs to be inspected by sr staff or w/e because he doesn't deserve to have his rank based on my interaction with him, no moderator who's not an idiot would punish someone for saying L as an obvious joke

yeah i was a bit shocked when they promoted the h-dawg
he's a bit afk in the head if u get my drift

it's because badlion has the same shit ruleset for this

they killed off an entire community and the nazi chat rules definitely played a part in that when kohi merged

the thing i liked about kohi was that the chat was more laid back and it made interacting with others easier, and then badlion kills it off and makes 1 letter mutable (which everyone who was informed about the joke knew was a retarded thing to do)

I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao, CerealFirst needs to be inspected by sr staff or w/e because he doesn't deserve to have his rank based on my interaction with him, no moderator who's not an idiot would punish someone for saying L as an obvious joke

L to everyone!

Btw, this will be a long post and I left a note at the end. I would suggest not just skimming through and actually try to read as much as you can so you get a whole idea and not half a story.....

@dev_revs - First off, I would ask that you don’t use my irl name when referring to how I staff or something related to that, use my ign please. Secondly, you are over exaggerating how I punish for saying L in chat. I do not care if the player is in spec mode or not, there is no reason for anyone to say L in chat and to also add onto that, I am only following the procedure I am required to follow unless their punishments say otherwise. Also, a verbal warn is nothing in my opinion because it doesn’t even go on your record. If I verbal warn someone then that means they should stop before it actually starts becoming a huge issue. The only reason it is a huge issue now is because people are acting like it is a new rule even though it has been a thing for over a year now at least.

@DaGoldBrick - In reality, you were temp-banned because you refused to follow staff orders and went from a simple verbal warn all the way to a temp-ban. I asked you the first time to not say L, and even privately messaged you in game as you had bluntly told me you would say it as you please, which does not mean you are allowed to say it. We went from a /warn to a kick, and when you say “ I got temp-banned by putting L in the chat, whilst I was in spec and sitting in spawn”, you actually came back on from being kicked, said “hold this L”, and earned yourself a temp-ban after having multiple opportunities to stop. Finally, being in spec mode and in spawn does not mean you can throw around “L” like it is nothing. And if you look on your appeal, you would see what I put there to justify your temp-ban. As for context, yes I can agree sometimes it can be bad since it is in chat and not a live interaction in a voice to voice thing, but even so; do you really expect us to gather enough context from just “L” to say “oh that dude is just saying it to his friend it’s alright we can let it slide”. I hope your answer is no considering that is the argument players try to make with us when we do something about it.

@Rocky - If you want to mock people after they die, go on a practice server and do it. Sorry to be a bit blunt about it but it has been a rule on here for a long time. As for your only reasoning being “If they don't like it then they shouldn't die”, I do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that it is the person who died fault that the other player that killed them had mocked them in chat?

@Pokerface - Agreed, this is the same process that I do with all the players but yet there is an issue with it? Apparently this is too strict even though players have about 5-6 chances to stop and avoid punishment. If anything it is good that we verbal warn first so why complain? As for the need to say it… FAX B.

@DaGoldBrick - We still punish for winning teams saying W after a match, or at least I do and around 2 other mods. As for you and the “irrelevant horizon” fella, the rule still applies no matter what. If we let you and the other player continue on then everyone else will want to do it and at that point people will just go and try to push it. As for being punishable off mod guidelines, he is right and as for context, if he read “take this L kid” “you're easy get good” “L (horizon dude)” then that is good enough for him to do something about it. As for how people become mod, they apply, get accepted and go through an interview, and finally become Jr Mod if they did good in the interview. After that they do a trial (like I did) and if they are deemed to be good enough/amazing, they get promoted. If they become mod that means they are doing something right even if people do not agree with the way they do it. As for training them, the trial period is basically training and a trial. Also, Jr Mods are taught how to staff before they even begin their trial, which is enough training considering they have a few weeks to get better at it and have access to other staff whenever they need anything.

@Lokigh - Exactly, I can understand when new players come on and say L, but considering most of the people we punish for it have been on for at least a few months, there is no excuse for them to not have taken the initiative to read the rules or at least have learned them from in game.

@profbananaslug - (ik you will say something like “what did i tell you, don't talk to me”, idc if i feel like I have to respond I will) He is referring to people arguing with each other in game like “kid L” -> “nah your trash kek, agro kid 4v1” -> “nah you just bad” and so on.

@dev_revs - I also forgot to mention earlier that I wouldn’t let you say random letters in chat because it triggered me is fair IMO. Rule 4 on the “Rules” states “Follow the directions given by any Avicus staff member. Do not lie to a staff member. If you believe a staff member is abusing their power through wrongful punishments or other methods, please email [email protected] and provide any evidence or details you possess regarding the staff member.” …. More importantly, the bit on following a staff members directions. I had asked everyone in chat to stop with the letters because it was flooding chat with the amount of times everyone was saying it, spammy during certain points, and honestly just stupid to look at in chat, I would turn off chat but I have to read all the false reports that I also saw during those 30 minutes on people reporting for silly reasons. <- that last thing is not part of the rules but the 1st and 2nd are valid from what I saw. Saying that I was triggered was false considering I was only asking that everyone would not flood chat with the letters even if it was a simple letter like “a” and “t” because it caused more players to join in.

@APacketOfChips - FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSE!!!!! I will be honest and disagree with you on the “all fun and games” thing but I guess we both interpret the rules differently.

@DaGoldBrick - you weren’t punished for “joking around”, yes the ban reason says “Please do not say L in chat” or something similar to that, but my reasoning behind it was because you refused to obey staff orders, which ultimately led to a temp-ban. In your appeal I told you why.

@dev_revs - it was no accident, Brick was a spectator to you just saying L but what I saw was someone who refused to obey staff orders. Which in a previous thing above I had stated the rule on that.

@Xylk - …

@APacketofChips - “Saying "L" in chat is toxic, and can be rude towards some people, which is why we don't allow it.” Correct and fax b.

@Rombeyyy - What I said to dev_revs will be the same thing I will say to you, but I will add that Brick had earned his punishment legitimately. He could have stopped at the verbal warn or /warn but continued over a span of 10-15 mins.

@DaGoldenBrick - First off, Packet is not stupid and you should never treat a young lady like that, so rude :(, and second off, it is not a silly thing to ban off of. As I have stated before you were banned for continuing to keep saying L in chat. Yes I agree that L started off as a joke, but now it has been turned into an insult, which goes against the rule I put in your appeal which stated proper etiquette and behavior on the server. As for being banned off a single letter, I will again state I. DID. NOT…. ban you over a letter, I banned you for the context in which you said it and refusal to follow my directions. As for you saying W when you are on the winning team, you told me you could care less and would say L as you wish and got punished, I would look back and apply that to future situations like this and try to not think “I know I got banned for something like this, but this is different because I am changing the letter so I can’t be banned” and think “Even though I am turning the table here, the context is the same so I shouldn’t do it.” because the punishment will still be the same if all you are worried about is context. As for your reply to Miqah, they had clearly said they didn’t understand the whole story, but I will leave this at that.

@dev_revs - Your point is invalid when you say “so if a mod tells us to stop playing, we have to stop playing?”. What mod will tell anyone “Hey! YOU! Stop playing right now or ban.”? Also, the listen to mods bs is not bs. On any other server you will listen to a mod so Avicus is not any different. As for getting salty over little things, I suggest you refer to what I have said earlier. Also assuming I did not like you guys saying random letters in chat so I asked you guys to stop is stupid. I would expect someone with a Media Rank would have some decent sense and try to think about the rules. If that comes off as blunt, eh take it as you will. As for him being only a spectator who was dieing does not justify saying L in chat even if he was not killing people. L is not allowed to be said... end of conversation about him being only a spectator because I have already explained it 2 or 3 times already.

@_Gill - I appreciate you stating your opinion in a mature manner. Like not even to be funny I actually do because now I can actually be more structured. My stance on the rule is this: I do not care if it is a joke, if you are in spec mode, if you don’t care about the rule, or if you think I need context as well as if you think I am unfair when I tell you to be a good sport. I interpret the rules a little more strict than other mods; nothing wrong with that at all to me, but it can be to you. Saying this, I would not take verbal warnings from me or any other staff with a grain of salt or try to go around it with saying anything similar. If I see you being a bad sport I will say something. If I see you in chat and it is hard to tell if you are actually being a bad sport, I ALWAYS… ask other staff and check rules.

@MLGtino - it isn’t about it being a letter, it is about the MEANING. As for stooping to this point, I wouldn’t even have to be making this if players actually listened to staff. As I have said many times before, this rule on bad sportsmanship is not even a new rule and has been around for a long time. Also with the assumption bit, yes it did create a grey area, but it is up to the mods on how they interpret rules. How I look at rules compared to Pokerface is different. As for controversy, really any rule can be controversial if you stretch it a bit.

@DaGoldBrick - “this is like saying "why do you keep saying hi to players when you were asked to stop?", surely one character L is inferior to 2 characters h and i in the same sentence?”... This point is in no way valid, if anything it is stupid because unless you were spamming or flooding chat with ‘hi’, no staff would ask for you to stop….. ”the fact that I got warned or kicked in the first place (for putting a LETTER in the chat) shows the mod in question is an idiot who doesn't deserve his rank in the first place (although this is being dealt with anyways)”.... Yes the warn to ban reason was about a letter, but the actual reason behind it was from what I saw and what you did. Also calling me an idiot will not advance your case considering it basically diminishes what you were trying to say. Saying that I do not deserve my rank is honestly stupid (sorry not sorry) because clearly, I must be doing something right if I passed my trial. I can understand if you said “He is a bit too strict” and stuff like that but saying something like that is really stupid. If you do not approve of the way I staff, you can report me to a Sr. Mod or Admin and let them talk to me and then you can sit back and wait to let them do all the work. Another option is to read the rules….. “of course I'm going to challenge retarded shit, if left unchallenged that retarded shit will grow to an even more retarded level of 'punishable' offenses given the thickness of some mods on here”..... At this point you are not even challenging anything anymore, you are just looking to say something silly and then have people agree with you. Half the people who agreed with you were not even there, and then those with actual reasonable points I already explained. As for leaving it unchallenged, I can agree with that, even I don’t agree with some rules but you don’t see me complaining. Rules are there for a reason. At this point I am not even going to avoid the fact that I was the one who punished so calling me thickheaded (I can also assume this would be to the mods that cared enough to reply to your thread) does not do anything for you. If anything, we are both thickheaded here because you refuse to listen to a simple rule and I was “too mean” or “too strict” with the way I staff. Again, if you have an issue with the way I staff, report it to Sr. Mods or to Junr (when he isn’t on Overwatch) and have them deal with your report on me, if they tell me I should change something a bit or if I am doing just dandy I will of course change it up a bit but as for now I think I am doing good…../now referring to the ABC’s/: Brick, you are just stretching it at this point and trying to make silly points and reasons. No one but you and maybe some Team Rocket players will ever think of the first 3 letters of the alphabet in that way. If it is not widely seen as a sign of disrespect or bad sportsmanship, then we see no reason to punish for it unless you spammed it in chat.

@SamuelJacob9 - correct

@vladthegreat100 - “3. Notify people that "L" can now be classified as rudeness or that you may not state "L" at all.”.... We have said this many times before and especially in the past few days, as for a grace period of course it will be a thing if this becomes changed…… “1. You pulled a new rule out of your asses without updating it on the Rules Page”...... No we have not. This has been a rule for a long time and if you scroll up, you can see that it is in fact, a rule. The rules in the “Rules” thread do not always blatantly say “Don’t say L, ez, izi, etc” but they are there if you took the time to think. Also, there has been many times that people have been just told that you were not allowed to say L or ez in chat. I remember 6 months ago a staff member telling me that saying those things was not allowed. Saying the rule came out recently is sadly false because even though it is not blatantly written, the rule has always been there. I see that you have already said something along the line of that it should be written blatantly if it is a rule, but at least I try to follow the bloody policies. Also, most/all staff that are in charge of that have much more important things to do than to add a rule that was already under another rule. You are right when you say that we will never please everyone.

@DaGoldBrick - Badlion’s rules do not apply to this, have a problem with it, do the same thing you are doing here and challenge their rules. “Nazi chat rules”.... A bit of a hyperbole but I can see what you mean. “I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao”.... Brick, what did you expect to happen? For me to give you a slap on the wrist and say “Bad Brick!”?. To what Miqah said, you really didn’t think you had it coming? Your ban is legitimate, so what do you mean that I need to be inspected by staff? When you were banned there were 2 other mods on and a Sr. Mod on the discord that I could easily contact so they could have easily stopped me if they thought I should have held back on hitting the enter key. If anything, at this point you should know how the procedure goes for punishments considering on how long you have been playing. Back to with me and my rank, if you have an issue, tell a Sr. Mod instead of now just telling them when you are banned on a forums post after you call the staff team thickheaded and idiots. Speaking of which, an “idiot” would not realise that they should stop continuing after a staff member told them to stop even if it was a joke. By the way, “L” on its own does not make it an obvious joke, so where was the context? Also, coming back after a kick and telling me to hold an L was what moved me to temp-ban.

@profbananaslug - If I was doing a bad job/ not meeting standards of being staff, my trial would have ended early and you would have seen a “CerealFirst has failed his trial and has been demoted from Jr mod” and a few pretty pictures on the #announcements in Discord. Also, I catch your drift when you called me afk in the head. If anything I am just fine in the head because when I go back and double check all the punishments I given, only 1 punishment was deemed false (it was appealed. That kind of tells me I think I know what I am doing in terms of being staff so I don’t know what the surprise was.

@KojaCola; @MeMyselfAndSnow; @Miqah - You three have basically half summed up what I have said, thank god. For those that do not want to follow the rules of the server, you are not entitled or required to play on here. For those that try to push the rules, we will get on you for it. Finally for those that do not agree with how me or any other staff on here do their duty as moderator/staff, you have always had the option of reporting a “bad” mod to a Senior.

NOTE: If this comes off as rude to anyone in anyway, I do not intend it to be that way. Yes I may have said some borderline things, but they were meant to explain myself. As for those who want to tell me how to do my job, wait a few months, wait for apps to open, apply and hope to get accepted, go through the process and become mod yourself so you can make a change on the server. If you don’t want to go through that, make a well structured forum post that in no way offends anyone, leave it open to the community to have a reasonable conversation instead of attacking the way someone does something. Again, I will say I do not intend to be offensive to anyone I replied to, but this is me clearing myself up and explaining myself instead of being quiet like I usually am on what I do.

what did i tell you, don't talk to me

ℒ

First!

holy shit

What did I tell you? That I could care less about what you told me, you can say the same thing to me but that will not stop me from replying or having to talk to you. Might as well learn to put up with it at this point. Also there is no need for the "L" in fancy lettering

serious ℒack of respect here dude
didn't we taℒk about how you shouℒd chiℒℒ out ℒike way back when
and now ℒook what's happened

I stated my opinion and tried to explain myself? As for lack of respect, I tried to be very respectful in what I wrote. As for chilling out, I frankly do not care. I will say what I need to say and I will do it how I feel like I should do it even if it requires me writing a whole book. Also if you are refering for me to chill because I did my thing and punished a player, then you have no clue what is going on.

Btw, this will be a long post and I left a note at the end. I would suggest not just skimming through and actually try to read as much as you can so you get a whole idea and not half a story.....

@dev_revs - First off, I would ask that you don’t use my irl name when referring to how I staff or something related to that, use my ign please. Secondly, you are over exaggerating how I punish for saying L in chat. I do not care if the player is in spec mode or not, there is no reason for anyone to say L in chat and to also add onto that, I am only following the procedure I am required to follow unless their punishments say otherwise. Also, a verbal warn is nothing in my opinion because it doesn’t even go on your record. If I verbal warn someone then that means they should stop before it actually starts becoming a huge issue. The only reason it is a huge issue now is because people are acting like it is a new rule even though it has been a thing for over a year now at least.

@DaGoldBrick - In reality, you were temp-banned because you refused to follow staff orders and went from a simple verbal warn all the way to a temp-ban. I asked you the first time to not say L, and even privately messaged you in game as you had bluntly told me you would say it as you please, which does not mean you are allowed to say it. We went from a /warn to a kick, and when you say “ I got temp-banned by putting L in the chat, whilst I was in spec and sitting in spawn”, you actually came back on from being kicked, said “hold this L”, and earned yourself a temp-ban after having multiple opportunities to stop. Finally, being in spec mode and in spawn does not mean you can throw around “L” like it is nothing. And if you look on your appeal, you would see what I put there to justify your temp-ban. As for context, yes I can agree sometimes it can be bad since it is in chat and not a live interaction in a voice to voice thing, but even so; do you really expect us to gather enough context from just “L” to say “oh that dude is just saying it to his friend it’s alright we can let it slide”. I hope your answer is no considering that is the argument players try to make with us when we do something about it.

@Rocky - If you want to mock people after they die, go on a practice server and do it. Sorry to be a bit blunt about it but it has been a rule on here for a long time. As for your only reasoning being “If they don't like it then they shouldn't die”, I do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that it is the person who died fault that the other player that killed them had mocked them in chat?

@Pokerface - Agreed, this is the same process that I do with all the players but yet there is an issue with it? Apparently this is too strict even though players have about 5-6 chances to stop and avoid punishment. If anything it is good that we verbal warn first so why complain? As for the need to say it… FAX B.

@DaGoldBrick - We still punish for winning teams saying W after a match, or at least I do and around 2 other mods. As for you and the “irrelevant horizon” fella, the rule still applies no matter what. If we let you and the other player continue on then everyone else will want to do it and at that point people will just go and try to push it. As for being punishable off mod guidelines, he is right and as for context, if he read “take this L kid” “you're easy get good” “L (horizon dude)” then that is good enough for him to do something about it. As for how people become mod, they apply, get accepted and go through an interview, and finally become Jr Mod if they did good in the interview. After that they do a trial (like I did) and if they are deemed to be good enough/amazing, they get promoted. If they become mod that means they are doing something right even if people do not agree with the way they do it. As for training them, the trial period is basically training and a trial. Also, Jr Mods are taught how to staff before they even begin their trial, which is enough training considering they have a few weeks to get better at it and have access to other staff whenever they need anything.

@Lokigh - Exactly, I can understand when new players come on and say L, but considering most of the people we punish for it have been on for at least a few months, there is no excuse for them to not have taken the initiative to read the rules or at least have learned them from in game.

@profbananaslug - (ik you will say something like “what did i tell you, don't talk to me”, idc if i feel like I have to respond I will) He is referring to people arguing with each other in game like “kid L” -> “nah your trash kek, agro kid 4v1” -> “nah you just bad” and so on.

@dev_revs - I also forgot to mention earlier that I wouldn’t let you say random letters in chat because it triggered me is fair IMO. Rule 4 on the “Rules” states “Follow the directions given by any Avicus staff member. Do not lie to a staff member. If you believe a staff member is abusing their power through wrongful punishments or other methods, please email [email protected] and provide any evidence or details you possess regarding the staff member.” …. More importantly, the bit on following a staff members directions. I had asked everyone in chat to stop with the letters because it was flooding chat with the amount of times everyone was saying it, spammy during certain points, and honestly just stupid to look at in chat, I would turn off chat but I have to read all the false reports that I also saw during those 30 minutes on people reporting for silly reasons. <- that last thing is not part of the rules but the 1st and 2nd are valid from what I saw. Saying that I was triggered was false considering I was only asking that everyone would not flood chat with the letters even if it was a simple letter like “a” and “t” because it caused more players to join in.

@APacketOfChips - FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSE!!!!! I will be honest and disagree with you on the “all fun and games” thing but I guess we both interpret the rules differently.

@DaGoldBrick - you weren’t punished for “joking around”, yes the ban reason says “Please do not say L in chat” or something similar to that, but my reasoning behind it was because you refused to obey staff orders, which ultimately led to a temp-ban. In your appeal I told you why.

@dev_revs - it was no accident, Brick was a spectator to you just saying L but what I saw was someone who refused to obey staff orders. Which in a previous thing above I had stated the rule on that.

@Xylk - …

@APacketofChips - “Saying "L" in chat is toxic, and can be rude towards some people, which is why we don't allow it.” Correct and fax b.

@Rombeyyy - What I said to dev_revs will be the same thing I will say to you, but I will add that Brick had earned his punishment legitimately. He could have stopped at the verbal warn or /warn but continued over a span of 10-15 mins.

@DaGoldenBrick - First off, Packet is not stupid and you should never treat a young lady like that, so rude :(, and second off, it is not a silly thing to ban off of. As I have stated before you were banned for continuing to keep saying L in chat. Yes I agree that L started off as a joke, but now it has been turned into an insult, which goes against the rule I put in your appeal which stated proper etiquette and behavior on the server. As for being banned off a single letter, I will again state I. DID. NOT…. ban you over a letter, I banned you for the context in which you said it and refusal to follow my directions. As for you saying W when you are on the winning team, you told me you could care less and would say L as you wish and got punished, I would look back and apply that to future situations like this and try to not think “I know I got banned for something like this, but this is different because I am changing the letter so I can’t be banned” and think “Even though I am turning the table here, the context is the same so I shouldn’t do it.” because the punishment will still be the same if all you are worried about is context. As for your reply to Miqah, they had clearly said they didn’t understand the whole story, but I will leave this at that.

@dev_revs - Your point is invalid when you say “so if a mod tells us to stop playing, we have to stop playing?”. What mod will tell anyone “Hey! YOU! Stop playing right now or ban.”? Also, the listen to mods bs is not bs. On any other server you will listen to a mod so Avicus is not any different. As for getting salty over little things, I suggest you refer to what I have said earlier. Also assuming I did not like you guys saying random letters in chat so I asked you guys to stop is stupid. I would expect someone with a Media Rank would have some decent sense and try to think about the rules. If that comes off as blunt, eh take it as you will. As for him being only a spectator who was dieing does not justify saying L in chat even if he was not killing people. L is not allowed to be said... end of conversation about him being only a spectator because I have already explained it 2 or 3 times already.

@_Gill - I appreciate you stating your opinion in a mature manner. Like not even to be funny I actually do because now I can actually be more structured. My stance on the rule is this: I do not care if it is a joke, if you are in spec mode, if you don’t care about the rule, or if you think I need context as well as if you think I am unfair when I tell you to be a good sport. I interpret the rules a little more strict than other mods; nothing wrong with that at all to me, but it can be to you. Saying this, I would not take verbal warnings from me or any other staff with a grain of salt or try to go around it with saying anything similar. If I see you being a bad sport I will say something. If I see you in chat and it is hard to tell if you are actually being a bad sport, I ALWAYS… ask other staff and check rules.

@MLGtino - it isn’t about it being a letter, it is about the MEANING. As for stooping to this point, I wouldn’t even have to be making this if players actually listened to staff. As I have said many times before, this rule on bad sportsmanship is not even a new rule and has been around for a long time. Also with the assumption bit, yes it did create a grey area, but it is up to the mods on how they interpret rules. How I look at rules compared to Pokerface is different. As for controversy, really any rule can be controversial if you stretch it a bit.

@DaGoldBrick - “this is like saying "why do you keep saying hi to players when you were asked to stop?", surely one character L is inferior to 2 characters h and i in the same sentence?”... This point is in no way valid, if anything it is stupid because unless you were spamming or flooding chat with ‘hi’, no staff would ask for you to stop….. ”the fact that I got warned or kicked in the first place (for putting a LETTER in the chat) shows the mod in question is an idiot who doesn't deserve his rank in the first place (although this is being dealt with anyways)”.... Yes the warn to ban reason was about a letter, but the actual reason behind it was from what I saw and what you did. Also calling me an idiot will not advance your case considering it basically diminishes what you were trying to say. Saying that I do not deserve my rank is honestly stupid (sorry not sorry) because clearly, I must be doing something right if I passed my trial. I can understand if you said “He is a bit too strict” and stuff like that but saying something like that is really stupid. If you do not approve of the way I staff, you can report me to a Sr. Mod or Admin and let them talk to me and then you can sit back and wait to let them do all the work. Another option is to read the rules….. “of course I'm going to challenge retarded shit, if left unchallenged that retarded shit will grow to an even more retarded level of 'punishable' offenses given the thickness of some mods on here”..... At this point you are not even challenging anything anymore, you are just looking to say something silly and then have people agree with you. Half the people who agreed with you were not even there, and then those with actual reasonable points I already explained. As for leaving it unchallenged, I can agree with that, even I don’t agree with some rules but you don’t see me complaining. Rules are there for a reason. At this point I am not even going to avoid the fact that I was the one who punished so calling me thickheaded (I can also assume this would be to the mods that cared enough to reply to your thread) does not do anything for you. If anything, we are both thickheaded here because you refuse to listen to a simple rule and I was “too mean” or “too strict” with the way I staff. Again, if you have an issue with the way I staff, report it to Sr. Mods or to Junr (when he isn’t on Overwatch) and have them deal with your report on me, if they tell me I should change something a bit or if I am doing just dandy I will of course change it up a bit but as for now I think I am doing good…../now referring to the ABC’s/: Brick, you are just stretching it at this point and trying to make silly points and reasons. No one but you and maybe some Team Rocket players will ever think of the first 3 letters of the alphabet in that way. If it is not widely seen as a sign of disrespect or bad sportsmanship, then we see no reason to punish for it unless you spammed it in chat.

@SamuelJacob9 - correct

@vladthegreat100 - “3. Notify people that "L" can now be classified as rudeness or that you may not state "L" at all.”.... We have said this many times before and especially in the past few days, as for a grace period of course it will be a thing if this becomes changed…… “1. You pulled a new rule out of your asses without updating it on the Rules Page”...... No we have not. This has been a rule for a long time and if you scroll up, you can see that it is in fact, a rule. The rules in the “Rules” thread do not always blatantly say “Don’t say L, ez, izi, etc” but they are there if you took the time to think. Also, there has been many times that people have been just told that you were not allowed to say L or ez in chat. I remember 6 months ago a staff member telling me that saying those things was not allowed. Saying the rule came out recently is sadly false because even though it is not blatantly written, the rule has always been there. I see that you have already said something along the line of that it should be written blatantly if it is a rule, but at least I try to follow the bloody policies. Also, most/all staff that are in charge of that have much more important things to do than to add a rule that was already under another rule. You are right when you say that we will never please everyone.

@DaGoldBrick - Badlion’s rules do not apply to this, have a problem with it, do the same thing you are doing here and challenge their rules. “Nazi chat rules”.... A bit of a hyperbole but I can see what you mean. “I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao”.... Brick, what did you expect to happen? For me to give you a slap on the wrist and say “Bad Brick!”?. To what Miqah said, you really didn’t think you had it coming? Your ban is legitimate, so what do you mean that I need to be inspected by staff? When you were banned there were 2 other mods on and a Sr. Mod on the discord that I could easily contact so they could have easily stopped me if they thought I should have held back on hitting the enter key. If anything, at this point you should know how the procedure goes for punishments considering on how long you have been playing. Back to with me and my rank, if you have an issue, tell a Sr. Mod instead of now just telling them when you are banned on a forums post after you call the staff team thickheaded and idiots. Speaking of which, an “idiot” would not realise that they should stop continuing after a staff member told them to stop even if it was a joke. By the way, “L” on its own does not make it an obvious joke, so where was the context? Also, coming back after a kick and telling me to hold an L was what moved me to temp-ban.

@profbananaslug - If I was doing a bad job/ not meeting standards of being staff, my trial would have ended early and you would have seen a “CerealFirst has failed his trial and has been demoted from Jr mod” and a few pretty pictures on the #announcements in Discord. Also, I catch your drift when you called me afk in the head. If anything I am just fine in the head because when I go back and double check all the punishments I given, only 1 punishment was deemed false (it was appealed. That kind of tells me I think I know what I am doing in terms of being staff so I don’t know what the surprise was.

@KojaCola; @MeMyselfAndSnow; @Miqah - You three have basically half summed up what I have said, thank god. For those that do not want to follow the rules of the server, you are not entitled or required to play on here. For those that try to push the rules, we will get on you for it. Finally for those that do not agree with how me or any other staff on here do their duty as moderator/staff, you have always had the option of reporting a “bad” mod to a Senior.

NOTE: If this comes off as rude to anyone in anyway, I do not intend it to be that way. Yes I may have said some borderline things, but they were meant to explain myself. As for those who want to tell me how to do my job, wait a few months, wait for apps to open, apply and hope to get accepted, go through the process and become mod yourself so you can make a change on the server. If you don’t want to go through that, make a well structured forum post that in no way offends anyone, leave it open to the community to have a reasonable conversation instead of attacking the way someone does something. Again, I will say I do not intend to be offensive to anyone I replied to, but this is me clearing myself up and explaining myself instead of being quiet like I usually am on what I do.

What did I tell you? That I could care less about what you told me, you can say the same thing to me but that will not stop me from replying or having to talk to you. Might as well learn to put up with it at this point. Also there is no need for the "L" in fancy lettering

Btw, this will be a long post and I left a note at the end. I would suggest not just skimming through and actually try to read as much as you can so you get a whole idea and not half a story.....

@dev_revs - First off, I would ask that you don’t use my irl name when referring to how I staff or something related to that, use my ign please. Secondly, you are over exaggerating how I punish for saying L in chat. I do not care if the player is in spec mode or not, there is no reason for anyone to say L in chat and to also add onto that, I am only following the procedure I am required to follow unless their punishments say otherwise. Also, a verbal warn is nothing in my opinion because it doesn’t even go on your record. If I verbal warn someone then that means they should stop before it actually starts becoming a huge issue. The only reason it is a huge issue now is because people are acting like it is a new rule even though it has been a thing for over a year now at least.

@DaGoldBrick - In reality, you were temp-banned because you refused to follow staff orders and went from a simple verbal warn all the way to a temp-ban. I asked you the first time to not say L, and even privately messaged you in game as you had bluntly told me you would say it as you please, which does not mean you are allowed to say it. We went from a /warn to a kick, and when you say “ I got temp-banned by putting L in the chat, whilst I was in spec and sitting in spawn”, you actually came back on from being kicked, said “hold this L”, and earned yourself a temp-ban after having multiple opportunities to stop. Finally, being in spec mode and in spawn does not mean you can throw around “L” like it is nothing. And if you look on your appeal, you would see what I put there to justify your temp-ban. As for context, yes I can agree sometimes it can be bad since it is in chat and not a live interaction in a voice to voice thing, but even so; do you really expect us to gather enough context from just “L” to say “oh that dude is just saying it to his friend it’s alright we can let it slide”. I hope your answer is no considering that is the argument players try to make with us when we do something about it.

@Rocky - If you want to mock people after they die, go on a practice server and do it. Sorry to be a bit blunt about it but it has been a rule on here for a long time. As for your only reasoning being “If they don't like it then they shouldn't die”, I do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that it is the person who died fault that the other player that killed them had mocked them in chat?

@Pokerface - Agreed, this is the same process that I do with all the players but yet there is an issue with it? Apparently this is too strict even though players have about 5-6 chances to stop and avoid punishment. If anything it is good that we verbal warn first so why complain? As for the need to say it… FAX B.

@DaGoldBrick - We still punish for winning teams saying W after a match, or at least I do and around 2 other mods. As for you and the “irrelevant horizon” fella, the rule still applies no matter what. If we let you and the other player continue on then everyone else will want to do it and at that point people will just go and try to push it. As for being punishable off mod guidelines, he is right and as for context, if he read “take this L kid” “you're easy get good” “L (horizon dude)” then that is good enough for him to do something about it. As for how people become mod, they apply, get accepted and go through an interview, and finally become Jr Mod if they did good in the interview. After that they do a trial (like I did) and if they are deemed to be good enough/amazing, they get promoted. If they become mod that means they are doing something right even if people do not agree with the way they do it. As for training them, the trial period is basically training and a trial. Also, Jr Mods are taught how to staff before they even begin their trial, which is enough training considering they have a few weeks to get better at it and have access to other staff whenever they need anything.

@Lokigh - Exactly, I can understand when new players come on and say L, but considering most of the people we punish for it have been on for at least a few months, there is no excuse for them to not have taken the initiative to read the rules or at least have learned them from in game.

@profbananaslug - (ik you will say something like “what did i tell you, don't talk to me”, idc if i feel like I have to respond I will) He is referring to people arguing with each other in game like “kid L” -> “nah your trash kek, agro kid 4v1” -> “nah you just bad” and so on.

@dev_revs - I also forgot to mention earlier that I wouldn’t let you say random letters in chat because it triggered me is fair IMO. Rule 4 on the “Rules” states “Follow the directions given by any Avicus staff member. Do not lie to a staff member. If you believe a staff member is abusing their power through wrongful punishments or other methods, please email [email protected] and provide any evidence or details you possess regarding the staff member.” …. More importantly, the bit on following a staff members directions. I had asked everyone in chat to stop with the letters because it was flooding chat with the amount of times everyone was saying it, spammy during certain points, and honestly just stupid to look at in chat, I would turn off chat but I have to read all the false reports that I also saw during those 30 minutes on people reporting for silly reasons. <- that last thing is not part of the rules but the 1st and 2nd are valid from what I saw. Saying that I was triggered was false considering I was only asking that everyone would not flood chat with the letters even if it was a simple letter like “a” and “t” because it caused more players to join in.

@APacketOfChips - FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSE!!!!! I will be honest and disagree with you on the “all fun and games” thing but I guess we both interpret the rules differently.

@DaGoldBrick - you weren’t punished for “joking around”, yes the ban reason says “Please do not say L in chat” or something similar to that, but my reasoning behind it was because you refused to obey staff orders, which ultimately led to a temp-ban. In your appeal I told you why.

@dev_revs - it was no accident, Brick was a spectator to you just saying L but what I saw was someone who refused to obey staff orders. Which in a previous thing above I had stated the rule on that.

@Xylk - …

@APacketofChips - “Saying "L" in chat is toxic, and can be rude towards some people, which is why we don't allow it.” Correct and fax b.

@Rombeyyy - What I said to dev_revs will be the same thing I will say to you, but I will add that Brick had earned his punishment legitimately. He could have stopped at the verbal warn or /warn but continued over a span of 10-15 mins.

@DaGoldenBrick - First off, Packet is not stupid and you should never treat a young lady like that, so rude :(, and second off, it is not a silly thing to ban off of. As I have stated before you were banned for continuing to keep saying L in chat. Yes I agree that L started off as a joke, but now it has been turned into an insult, which goes against the rule I put in your appeal which stated proper etiquette and behavior on the server. As for being banned off a single letter, I will again state I. DID. NOT…. ban you over a letter, I banned you for the context in which you said it and refusal to follow my directions. As for you saying W when you are on the winning team, you told me you could care less and would say L as you wish and got punished, I would look back and apply that to future situations like this and try to not think “I know I got banned for something like this, but this is different because I am changing the letter so I can’t be banned” and think “Even though I am turning the table here, the context is the same so I shouldn’t do it.” because the punishment will still be the same if all you are worried about is context. As for your reply to Miqah, they had clearly said they didn’t understand the whole story, but I will leave this at that.

@dev_revs - Your point is invalid when you say “so if a mod tells us to stop playing, we have to stop playing?”. What mod will tell anyone “Hey! YOU! Stop playing right now or ban.”? Also, the listen to mods bs is not bs. On any other server you will listen to a mod so Avicus is not any different. As for getting salty over little things, I suggest you refer to what I have said earlier. Also assuming I did not like you guys saying random letters in chat so I asked you guys to stop is stupid. I would expect someone with a Media Rank would have some decent sense and try to think about the rules. If that comes off as blunt, eh take it as you will. As for him being only a spectator who was dieing does not justify saying L in chat even if he was not killing people. L is not allowed to be said... end of conversation about him being only a spectator because I have already explained it 2 or 3 times already.

@_Gill - I appreciate you stating your opinion in a mature manner. Like not even to be funny I actually do because now I can actually be more structured. My stance on the rule is this: I do not care if it is a joke, if you are in spec mode, if you don’t care about the rule, or if you think I need context as well as if you think I am unfair when I tell you to be a good sport. I interpret the rules a little more strict than other mods; nothing wrong with that at all to me, but it can be to you. Saying this, I would not take verbal warnings from me or any other staff with a grain of salt or try to go around it with saying anything similar. If I see you being a bad sport I will say something. If I see you in chat and it is hard to tell if you are actually being a bad sport, I ALWAYS… ask other staff and check rules.

@MLGtino - it isn’t about it being a letter, it is about the MEANING. As for stooping to this point, I wouldn’t even have to be making this if players actually listened to staff. As I have said many times before, this rule on bad sportsmanship is not even a new rule and has been around for a long time. Also with the assumption bit, yes it did create a grey area, but it is up to the mods on how they interpret rules. How I look at rules compared to Pokerface is different. As for controversy, really any rule can be controversial if you stretch it a bit.

@DaGoldBrick - “this is like saying "why do you keep saying hi to players when you were asked to stop?", surely one character L is inferior to 2 characters h and i in the same sentence?”... This point is in no way valid, if anything it is stupid because unless you were spamming or flooding chat with ‘hi’, no staff would ask for you to stop….. ”the fact that I got warned or kicked in the first place (for putting a LETTER in the chat) shows the mod in question is an idiot who doesn't deserve his rank in the first place (although this is being dealt with anyways)”.... Yes the warn to ban reason was about a letter, but the actual reason behind it was from what I saw and what you did. Also calling me an idiot will not advance your case considering it basically diminishes what you were trying to say. Saying that I do not deserve my rank is honestly stupid (sorry not sorry) because clearly, I must be doing something right if I passed my trial. I can understand if you said “He is a bit too strict” and stuff like that but saying something like that is really stupid. If you do not approve of the way I staff, you can report me to a Sr. Mod or Admin and let them talk to me and then you can sit back and wait to let them do all the work. Another option is to read the rules….. “of course I'm going to challenge retarded shit, if left unchallenged that retarded shit will grow to an even more retarded level of 'punishable' offenses given the thickness of some mods on here”..... At this point you are not even challenging anything anymore, you are just looking to say something silly and then have people agree with you. Half the people who agreed with you were not even there, and then those with actual reasonable points I already explained. As for leaving it unchallenged, I can agree with that, even I don’t agree with some rules but you don’t see me complaining. Rules are there for a reason. At this point I am not even going to avoid the fact that I was the one who punished so calling me thickheaded (I can also assume this would be to the mods that cared enough to reply to your thread) does not do anything for you. If anything, we are both thickheaded here because you refuse to listen to a simple rule and I was “too mean” or “too strict” with the way I staff. Again, if you have an issue with the way I staff, report it to Sr. Mods or to Junr (when he isn’t on Overwatch) and have them deal with your report on me, if they tell me I should change something a bit or if I am doing just dandy I will of course change it up a bit but as for now I think I am doing good…../now referring to the ABC’s/: Brick, you are just stretching it at this point and trying to make silly points and reasons. No one but you and maybe some Team Rocket players will ever think of the first 3 letters of the alphabet in that way. If it is not widely seen as a sign of disrespect or bad sportsmanship, then we see no reason to punish for it unless you spammed it in chat.

@SamuelJacob9 - correct

@vladthegreat100 - “3. Notify people that "L" can now be classified as rudeness or that you may not state "L" at all.”.... We have said this many times before and especially in the past few days, as for a grace period of course it will be a thing if this becomes changed…… “1. You pulled a new rule out of your asses without updating it on the Rules Page”...... No we have not. This has been a rule for a long time and if you scroll up, you can see that it is in fact, a rule. The rules in the “Rules” thread do not always blatantly say “Don’t say L, ez, izi, etc” but they are there if you took the time to think. Also, there has been many times that people have been just told that you were not allowed to say L or ez in chat. I remember 6 months ago a staff member telling me that saying those things was not allowed. Saying the rule came out recently is sadly false because even though it is not blatantly written, the rule has always been there. I see that you have already said something along the line of that it should be written blatantly if it is a rule, but at least I try to follow the bloody policies. Also, most/all staff that are in charge of that have much more important things to do than to add a rule that was already under another rule. You are right when you say that we will never please everyone.

@DaGoldBrick - Badlion’s rules do not apply to this, have a problem with it, do the same thing you are doing here and challenge their rules. “Nazi chat rules”.... A bit of a hyperbole but I can see what you mean. “I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao”.... Brick, what did you expect to happen? For me to give you a slap on the wrist and say “Bad Brick!”?. To what Miqah said, you really didn’t think you had it coming? Your ban is legitimate, so what do you mean that I need to be inspected by staff? When you were banned there were 2 other mods on and a Sr. Mod on the discord that I could easily contact so they could have easily stopped me if they thought I should have held back on hitting the enter key. If anything, at this point you should know how the procedure goes for punishments considering on how long you have been playing. Back to with me and my rank, if you have an issue, tell a Sr. Mod instead of now just telling them when you are banned on a forums post after you call the staff team thickheaded and idiots. Speaking of which, an “idiot” would not realise that they should stop continuing after a staff member told them to stop even if it was a joke. By the way, “L” on its own does not make it an obvious joke, so where was the context? Also, coming back after a kick and telling me to hold an L was what moved me to temp-ban.

@profbananaslug - If I was doing a bad job/ not meeting standards of being staff, my trial would have ended early and you would have seen a “CerealFirst has failed his trial and has been demoted from Jr mod” and a few pretty pictures on the #announcements in Discord. Also, I catch your drift when you called me afk in the head. If anything I am just fine in the head because when I go back and double check all the punishments I given, only 1 punishment was deemed false (it was appealed. That kind of tells me I think I know what I am doing in terms of being staff so I don’t know what the surprise was.

@KojaCola; @MeMyselfAndSnow; @Miqah - You three have basically half summed up what I have said, thank god. For those that do not want to follow the rules of the server, you are not entitled or required to play on here. For those that try to push the rules, we will get on you for it. Finally for those that do not agree with how me or any other staff on here do their duty as moderator/staff, you have always had the option of reporting a “bad” mod to a Senior.

NOTE: If this comes off as rude to anyone in anyway, I do not intend it to be that way. Yes I may have said some borderline things, but they were meant to explain myself. As for those who want to tell me how to do my job, wait a few months, wait for apps to open, apply and hope to get accepted, go through the process and become mod yourself so you can make a change on the server. If you don’t want to go through that, make a well structured forum post that in no way offends anyone, leave it open to the community to have a reasonable conversation instead of attacking the way someone does something. Again, I will say I do not intend to be offensive to anyone I replied to, but this is me clearing myself up and explaining myself instead of being quiet like I usually am on what I do.

I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao
You didn't expect to get banned after you got warned and kicked?
lol ok

I'm not mad at Henry, to start, and I don't think it's his fauℒt for his originaℒ punishment. I do, however, see it as indicative of a larger probℒem in the Avicus staff community that involves predatory staff behavior, tribaℒ mentalities, and poor mod training/qualifications. This comes from firsthand experience from being on the mod team (twice) I'm aℒso going to try and stray away from using the example that's the favorite in this thread, though I'ℒℒ comment about it at the end.

1. The Avicus moderation team and ℒay player base exist almost in a 1:1 ratio however mods are stiℒℒ expected to keep up reguℒar punishments. Oftentimes ruℒes can be stretched or weak/ smaℒℒ evidence can be used to support a punishment (even if ruℒes backing the punishment up are vague at best). This competition for something that VERY MUCH shouldn't be competitive, creates pressure which leads to predatory behavior in ruℒings, (not that any of our staff are corruptible in this manner ofc).

2. Oftentimes in threads where the core issue is a gray area in the rules and its framed as punished guy vs. staff that punished, there's a very distinct us vs. them situation that arises in which the mods defend their feℒℒow staff, while ℒay players foℒℒow suit on the other side. (As an aside, I see both sides and I think both are justifiable and the bℒame almost entirely lies squarely in a gray area in the rules and a miscommunication, not on either pℒayer.) However, this behavior by the mods is tribaℒ at best and at worst segregates the community and drives dissent towards the mod team. The mod team who often don't try to understand the community's pℒea for change OR try to diffuse the situation, simpℒy giving their viewpoint (which is ofc that they are right) and signing it off as that. These threads are not because a user wants to be appeaℒed, it's because a user wants to see change in the vague and in need of updating ruℒes/systems/etc. 

3. Becoming a mod on Avicus is not hard. I passed by 2nd interview while pℒaying Badlion. The training is very sparse from what I remember as weℒℒ, and from what I've heard it hasn't gotten better. (As another aside I'm pretty sure the protocol for this specific infraction is: warn >> kick >> 1 day temp. could be wrong) But mostℒy what I'm getting at is I see a lot of the mods assume a position that they're above the rest of the community and that they have some sort of governmentaℒ authority, when really their position is under payed daycare with about a few hours of training, a coupℒe docs, and a pretty sticker attached. I think this feeds into some of the tribaℒ mentality that should be diffused by the staff not perpetuated. This could easily be fixed by more training and coordination in the moderation team or maybe even more agency for mods in terms of changing rules themselves.

So in conclusion, Henry, i think given what you know about the rules, you did exactly what you had to. And for Brick, I as weℒℒ agree in that the rule needs updating. The main problem I see here is really in the behavior of the mods and sr. staff in trying to (or lack of) handle this situation or update the rules to make them more clear as other have suggested. In this example and in past. jk hold this <o/ xd ℒoℒ??

L=lossers. Nobody want to get called losser,  it can make to some people to feel uncomfortable and it can create a bad atmosphere on the chat, and it also refelcts that you are not a good sportman if you are calling losser to everyone who lose. So that is why, in my opinion, it´s against the rules and must be punishable.

Btw, this will be a long post and I left a note at the end. I would suggest not just skimming through and actually try to read as much as you can so you get a whole idea and not half a story.....

@dev_revs - First off, I would ask that you don’t use my irl name when referring to how I staff or something related to that, use my ign please. Secondly, you are over exaggerating how I punish for saying L in chat. I do not care if the player is in spec mode or not, there is no reason for anyone to say L in chat and to also add onto that, I am only following the procedure I am required to follow unless their punishments say otherwise. Also, a verbal warn is nothing in my opinion because it doesn’t even go on your record. If I verbal warn someone then that means they should stop before it actually starts becoming a huge issue. The only reason it is a huge issue now is because people are acting like it is a new rule even though it has been a thing for over a year now at least.

@DaGoldBrick - In reality, you were temp-banned because you refused to follow staff orders and went from a simple verbal warn all the way to a temp-ban. I asked you the first time to not say L, and even privately messaged you in game as you had bluntly told me you would say it as you please, which does not mean you are allowed to say it. We went from a /warn to a kick, and when you say “ I got temp-banned by putting L in the chat, whilst I was in spec and sitting in spawn”, you actually came back on from being kicked, said “hold this L”, and earned yourself a temp-ban after having multiple opportunities to stop. Finally, being in spec mode and in spawn does not mean you can throw around “L” like it is nothing. And if you look on your appeal, you would see what I put there to justify your temp-ban. As for context, yes I can agree sometimes it can be bad since it is in chat and not a live interaction in a voice to voice thing, but even so; do you really expect us to gather enough context from just “L” to say “oh that dude is just saying it to his friend it’s alright we can let it slide”. I hope your answer is no considering that is the argument players try to make with us when we do something about it.

@Rocky - If you want to mock people after they die, go on a practice server and do it. Sorry to be a bit blunt about it but it has been a rule on here for a long time. As for your only reasoning being “If they don't like it then they shouldn't die”, I do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that it is the person who died fault that the other player that killed them had mocked them in chat?

@Pokerface - Agreed, this is the same process that I do with all the players but yet there is an issue with it? Apparently this is too strict even though players have about 5-6 chances to stop and avoid punishment. If anything it is good that we verbal warn first so why complain? As for the need to say it… FAX B.

@DaGoldBrick - We still punish for winning teams saying W after a match, or at least I do and around 2 other mods. As for you and the “irrelevant horizon” fella, the rule still applies no matter what. If we let you and the other player continue on then everyone else will want to do it and at that point people will just go and try to push it. As for being punishable off mod guidelines, he is right and as for context, if he read “take this L kid” “you're easy get good” “L (horizon dude)” then that is good enough for him to do something about it. As for how people become mod, they apply, get accepted and go through an interview, and finally become Jr Mod if they did good in the interview. After that they do a trial (like I did) and if they are deemed to be good enough/amazing, they get promoted. If they become mod that means they are doing something right even if people do not agree with the way they do it. As for training them, the trial period is basically training and a trial. Also, Jr Mods are taught how to staff before they even begin their trial, which is enough training considering they have a few weeks to get better at it and have access to other staff whenever they need anything.

@Lokigh - Exactly, I can understand when new players come on and say L, but considering most of the people we punish for it have been on for at least a few months, there is no excuse for them to not have taken the initiative to read the rules or at least have learned them from in game.

@profbananaslug - (ik you will say something like “what did i tell you, don't talk to me”, idc if i feel like I have to respond I will) He is referring to people arguing with each other in game like “kid L” -> “nah your trash kek, agro kid 4v1” -> “nah you just bad” and so on.

@dev_revs - I also forgot to mention earlier that I wouldn’t let you say random letters in chat because it triggered me is fair IMO. Rule 4 on the “Rules” states “Follow the directions given by any Avicus staff member. Do not lie to a staff member. If you believe a staff member is abusing their power through wrongful punishments or other methods, please email [email protected] and provide any evidence or details you possess regarding the staff member.” …. More importantly, the bit on following a staff members directions. I had asked everyone in chat to stop with the letters because it was flooding chat with the amount of times everyone was saying it, spammy during certain points, and honestly just stupid to look at in chat, I would turn off chat but I have to read all the false reports that I also saw during those 30 minutes on people reporting for silly reasons. <- that last thing is not part of the rules but the 1st and 2nd are valid from what I saw. Saying that I was triggered was false considering I was only asking that everyone would not flood chat with the letters even if it was a simple letter like “a” and “t” because it caused more players to join in.

@APacketOfChips - FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSE!!!!! I will be honest and disagree with you on the “all fun and games” thing but I guess we both interpret the rules differently.

@DaGoldBrick - you weren’t punished for “joking around”, yes the ban reason says “Please do not say L in chat” or something similar to that, but my reasoning behind it was because you refused to obey staff orders, which ultimately led to a temp-ban. In your appeal I told you why.

@dev_revs - it was no accident, Brick was a spectator to you just saying L but what I saw was someone who refused to obey staff orders. Which in a previous thing above I had stated the rule on that.

@Xylk - …

@APacketofChips - “Saying "L" in chat is toxic, and can be rude towards some people, which is why we don't allow it.” Correct and fax b.

@Rombeyyy - What I said to dev_revs will be the same thing I will say to you, but I will add that Brick had earned his punishment legitimately. He could have stopped at the verbal warn or /warn but continued over a span of 10-15 mins.

@DaGoldenBrick - First off, Packet is not stupid and you should never treat a young lady like that, so rude :(, and second off, it is not a silly thing to ban off of. As I have stated before you were banned for continuing to keep saying L in chat. Yes I agree that L started off as a joke, but now it has been turned into an insult, which goes against the rule I put in your appeal which stated proper etiquette and behavior on the server. As for being banned off a single letter, I will again state I. DID. NOT…. ban you over a letter, I banned you for the context in which you said it and refusal to follow my directions. As for you saying W when you are on the winning team, you told me you could care less and would say L as you wish and got punished, I would look back and apply that to future situations like this and try to not think “I know I got banned for something like this, but this is different because I am changing the letter so I can’t be banned” and think “Even though I am turning the table here, the context is the same so I shouldn’t do it.” because the punishment will still be the same if all you are worried about is context. As for your reply to Miqah, they had clearly said they didn’t understand the whole story, but I will leave this at that.

@dev_revs - Your point is invalid when you say “so if a mod tells us to stop playing, we have to stop playing?”. What mod will tell anyone “Hey! YOU! Stop playing right now or ban.”? Also, the listen to mods bs is not bs. On any other server you will listen to a mod so Avicus is not any different. As for getting salty over little things, I suggest you refer to what I have said earlier. Also assuming I did not like you guys saying random letters in chat so I asked you guys to stop is stupid. I would expect someone with a Media Rank would have some decent sense and try to think about the rules. If that comes off as blunt, eh take it as you will. As for him being only a spectator who was dieing does not justify saying L in chat even if he was not killing people. L is not allowed to be said... end of conversation about him being only a spectator because I have already explained it 2 or 3 times already.

@_Gill - I appreciate you stating your opinion in a mature manner. Like not even to be funny I actually do because now I can actually be more structured. My stance on the rule is this: I do not care if it is a joke, if you are in spec mode, if you don’t care about the rule, or if you think I need context as well as if you think I am unfair when I tell you to be a good sport. I interpret the rules a little more strict than other mods; nothing wrong with that at all to me, but it can be to you. Saying this, I would not take verbal warnings from me or any other staff with a grain of salt or try to go around it with saying anything similar. If I see you being a bad sport I will say something. If I see you in chat and it is hard to tell if you are actually being a bad sport, I ALWAYS… ask other staff and check rules.

@MLGtino - it isn’t about it being a letter, it is about the MEANING. As for stooping to this point, I wouldn’t even have to be making this if players actually listened to staff. As I have said many times before, this rule on bad sportsmanship is not even a new rule and has been around for a long time. Also with the assumption bit, yes it did create a grey area, but it is up to the mods on how they interpret rules. How I look at rules compared to Pokerface is different. As for controversy, really any rule can be controversial if you stretch it a bit.

@DaGoldBrick - “this is like saying "why do you keep saying hi to players when you were asked to stop?", surely one character L is inferior to 2 characters h and i in the same sentence?”... This point is in no way valid, if anything it is stupid because unless you were spamming or flooding chat with ‘hi’, no staff would ask for you to stop….. ”the fact that I got warned or kicked in the first place (for putting a LETTER in the chat) shows the mod in question is an idiot who doesn't deserve his rank in the first place (although this is being dealt with anyways)”.... Yes the warn to ban reason was about a letter, but the actual reason behind it was from what I saw and what you did. Also calling me an idiot will not advance your case considering it basically diminishes what you were trying to say. Saying that I do not deserve my rank is honestly stupid (sorry not sorry) because clearly, I must be doing something right if I passed my trial. I can understand if you said “He is a bit too strict” and stuff like that but saying something like that is really stupid. If you do not approve of the way I staff, you can report me to a Sr. Mod or Admin and let them talk to me and then you can sit back and wait to let them do all the work. Another option is to read the rules….. “of course I'm going to challenge retarded shit, if left unchallenged that retarded shit will grow to an even more retarded level of 'punishable' offenses given the thickness of some mods on here”..... At this point you are not even challenging anything anymore, you are just looking to say something silly and then have people agree with you. Half the people who agreed with you were not even there, and then those with actual reasonable points I already explained. As for leaving it unchallenged, I can agree with that, even I don’t agree with some rules but you don’t see me complaining. Rules are there for a reason. At this point I am not even going to avoid the fact that I was the one who punished so calling me thickheaded (I can also assume this would be to the mods that cared enough to reply to your thread) does not do anything for you. If anything, we are both thickheaded here because you refuse to listen to a simple rule and I was “too mean” or “too strict” with the way I staff. Again, if you have an issue with the way I staff, report it to Sr. Mods or to Junr (when he isn’t on Overwatch) and have them deal with your report on me, if they tell me I should change something a bit or if I am doing just dandy I will of course change it up a bit but as for now I think I am doing good…../now referring to the ABC’s/: Brick, you are just stretching it at this point and trying to make silly points and reasons. No one but you and maybe some Team Rocket players will ever think of the first 3 letters of the alphabet in that way. If it is not widely seen as a sign of disrespect or bad sportsmanship, then we see no reason to punish for it unless you spammed it in chat.

@SamuelJacob9 - correct

@vladthegreat100 - “3. Notify people that "L" can now be classified as rudeness or that you may not state "L" at all.”.... We have said this many times before and especially in the past few days, as for a grace period of course it will be a thing if this becomes changed…… “1. You pulled a new rule out of your asses without updating it on the Rules Page”...... No we have not. This has been a rule for a long time and if you scroll up, you can see that it is in fact, a rule. The rules in the “Rules” thread do not always blatantly say “Don’t say L, ez, izi, etc” but they are there if you took the time to think. Also, there has been many times that people have been just told that you were not allowed to say L or ez in chat. I remember 6 months ago a staff member telling me that saying those things was not allowed. Saying the rule came out recently is sadly false because even though it is not blatantly written, the rule has always been there. I see that you have already said something along the line of that it should be written blatantly if it is a rule, but at least I try to follow the bloody policies. Also, most/all staff that are in charge of that have much more important things to do than to add a rule that was already under another rule. You are right when you say that we will never please everyone.

@DaGoldBrick - Badlion’s rules do not apply to this, have a problem with it, do the same thing you are doing here and challenge their rules. “Nazi chat rules”.... A bit of a hyperbole but I can see what you mean. “I'm only challenging it after I got banned because I honestly didn't expect to get banned lmao”.... Brick, what did you expect to happen? For me to give you a slap on the wrist and say “Bad Brick!”?. To what Miqah said, you really didn’t think you had it coming? Your ban is legitimate, so what do you mean that I need to be inspected by staff? When you were banned there were 2 other mods on and a Sr. Mod on the discord that I could easily contact so they could have easily stopped me if they thought I should have held back on hitting the enter key. If anything, at this point you should know how the procedure goes for punishments considering on how long you have been playing. Back to with me and my rank, if you have an issue, tell a Sr. Mod instead of now just telling them when you are banned on a forums post after you call the staff team thickheaded and idiots. Speaking of which, an “idiot” would not realise that they should stop continuing after a staff member told them to stop even if it was a joke. By the way, “L” on its own does not make it an obvious joke, so where was the context? Also, coming back after a kick and telling me to hold an L was what moved me to temp-ban.

@profbananaslug - If I was doing a bad job/ not meeting standards of being staff, my trial would have ended early and you would have seen a “CerealFirst has failed his trial and has been demoted from Jr mod” and a few pretty pictures on the #announcements in Discord. Also, I catch your drift when you called me afk in the head. If anything I am just fine in the head because when I go back and double check all the punishments I given, only 1 punishment was deemed false (it was appealed. That kind of tells me I think I know what I am doing in terms of being staff so I don’t know what the surprise was.

@KojaCola; @MeMyselfAndSnow; @Miqah - You three have basically half summed up what I have said, thank god. For those that do not want to follow the rules of the server, you are not entitled or required to play on here. For those that try to push the rules, we will get on you for it. Finally for those that do not agree with how me or any other staff on here do their duty as moderator/staff, you have always had the option of reporting a “bad” mod to a Senior.

NOTE: If this comes off as rude to anyone in anyway, I do not intend it to be that way. Yes I may have said some borderline things, but they were meant to explain myself. As for those who want to tell me how to do my job, wait a few months, wait for apps to open, apply and hope to get accepted, go through the process and become mod yourself so you can make a change on the server. If you don’t want to go through that, make a well structured forum post that in no way offends anyone, leave it open to the community to have a reasonable conversation instead of attacking the way someone does something. Again, I will say I do not intend to be offensive to anyone I replied to, but this is me clearing myself up and explaining myself instead of being quiet like I usually am on what I do.

In your opinion it's against the rules? That's not how it works, it's either against the rules or it isn't, there is no opinion.

L=lossers. Nobody want to get called losser,  it can make to some people to feel uncomfortable and it can create a bad atmosphere on the chat, and it also refelcts that you are not a good sportman if you are calling losser to everyone who lose. So that is why, in my opinion, it´s against the rules and must be punishable.

"The rules in the “Rules” thread do not always blatantly say “Don’t say L, ez, izi, etc” but they are there if you took the time to think."

"ez", "izi" are being punished as rudeness from the last time I remember being staff and was stated publicly multiple times by Senior Staff members to the public.
As for "L", it was a new thing but never spoken of to punish for. Also what can I think for "L"? You punished him for saying "L", 1 letter. No rudeness, no bad sportsmanship, but the 1 letter. That isn't something you can just "think" of to punish for 1 letter.

"Saying the rule came out recently is sadly false because even though it is not blatantly written, the rule has always been there."
When has it been there? Not until this moment has anyone heard of "L" being apart of the rules. Show me where the rule has been there, and then we can discuss this not being new, as I do not see on the rules that saying "L" is against the rules.

Okay, L is a new expression which means losser, and its considerated as bad sportmanship. So now that everyone knows, it isnt needed to be explicitly in rules, because there is a rule which prohibit to say that type of words. Is that enought?

It's a fucken letter dude, it's all in the context...
You can't just assume that they mean loser when they type L..

Honestly, people need to grow a pair lol.

Then dont type it. It is as easy as that. L means loser, there is no context, its an expression.
Also Im 18, so dont make that unnecesary comment just because you arent agree with other people opinions.

You'd be better off getting your point across without sounding rude and arrogant whenever you get the chance.

"The rules in the “Rules” thread do not always blatantly say “Don’t say L, ez, izi, etc” but they are there if you took the time to think."

"ez", "izi" are being punished as rudeness from the last time I remember being staff and was stated publicly multiple times by Senior Staff members to the public.
As for "L", it was a new thing but never spoken of to punish for. Also what can I think for "L"? You punished him for saying "L", 1 letter. No rudeness, no bad sportsmanship, but the 1 letter. That isn't something you can just "think" of to punish for 1 letter.

"Saying the rule came out recently is sadly false because even though it is not blatantly written, the rule has always been there."
When has it been there? Not until this moment has anyone heard of "L" being apart of the rules. Show me where the rule has been there, and then we can discuss this not being new, as I do not see on the rules that saying "L" is against the rules.

You'd be better off getting your point across without sounding rude and arrogant whenever you get the chance.

nah, if you think L should be punishable u really should rethink your life

stfu about "it's my opinion" I don't give a fuck what your opinion is when you're trying to form a definite set of rules

I think I haven't been rude with you, so at least you have to do the same with me, you look pretty inmatture if you don't do that. Anyways, if you are trying to form a definite set of rules, first of all you have to see the rules and then give your opinion about them. So I will give my opinion always, as I did with this topic. 
You can't be a robot in your life man, you always have an opinion and you must give it. If not, this world is a completely shit, because we will be robots instead of humans.

why are you telling me this robot thing instead of the moderators? 

If L is toxic, then so is every other letter of the alphabet, because you know what? They can mean fucking everything too, just like L can mean loss, like etc. L can literally mean anything, and even if it means "loss" that's not toxic at all.

Every other mod here is saying "oh context!" when the context I said it in wasn't even a "bad sportsmanship" one. This clearly indicates that the mod in question (CerealFirst) either has no human interaction outside of this game to see that it was clearly a fucking joke with the irrelevant horizon member or he's punishment hungry, in both cases, he doesn't deserve his rank. What if someone else is joking around with their friend saying L in the chat (obviously at that)? They're going to get banned too because a mod is incapable of reading a situation correctly? Don't give me this bullshit about "listening to staff" when they're clearly being retarded. I guess all the Jews should've listened to Hitler in WW2 and stayed in the country since he was technically the "staff" of the country they were residing in. If we should always listen to staff no matter how clearly wrong they are, why did Jews choose to flee Germany and its new ruleset when Hitler was in charge?

As someone else said below this, L is a term that has turned to mean loser, which is considered bad sportsmanship. Bad sportsmanship is already a rule widely accepted (because ez and izi are punishable offenses and people have been punished for this exact reason) which makes the "L" part of that rule automatically

Then dont type it. It is as easy as that. L means loser, there is no context, its an expression.
Also Im 18, so dont make that unnecesary comment just because you arent agree with other people opinions.